Whitebird

[defdes]

Project looks nice...but why the SU's? seems like you're limiting allot of the Sr's potential by sucking an olive thru a straw, but maybe that was the point?

[510-Trevor]

Nice looking project. I love the seats, I have been looking for something more retro to put into my car. And the '69 SSS guages are the cats ass, great looks and function.
The SU manifold on the other hand, I agree it could use a redesign, but until you see how the SU's perform theres no sense wasting the time trying to make the manifold pretty.

[duke]

Cool stuff Julian. Your cars are always built very cleanly and you can tell that you think about every modification before you make it. Also I like reading your posts because it it obvious that you have had a good deal of writing background. It is nice to read posts that contain proper grammar, as well as good articulation.

The car looks great, I love white cars and I'm digging the 4-door bluebird. Still kinda questioning the SU's on the SR though. Looks like the air filter is going to have to be pretty short so it doesn't hit the strut tower.

I don't want to hijack, but how did you do the valve cover on your KA? That's pretty cool looking. And I still think you should have TIG'd your stainless header on the blue car...

[goichi1]

Nice project! I remember seeing that car on Jahoo japan too, I always check them out....
-Cool idea with the SU's, not sure how it's gonna perform but I would think it's going to have way more power than before...not something I would do but may end up being a great idea. Sometimes you never know what works best until you try it.
-I have been looking for my next project and have been eyeing a few 1300's along with a few 70's Skylines, haven't decided yet, but it will be something along those lines....I just love the 68/69 dash....looks really nice!!
-When you get it all worked out are you pulling it back apart to refinish everything?? just curious.
-Seats are really nice, really thinking hard about putting those in my coupe now....thanks for the info and idea!! You are right, they look really close to stock and don't appear to be too tall....I hate tall backed seats!

[510rob]

I like it.

[okayfine]

Project looks nice...but why the SU's? seems like you're limiting allot of the Sr's potential by sucking an olive thru a straw, but maybe that was the point?

2000 Roadster SUs (46mm carbs, not the 38mm SUs from the SSS 510s) are pretty big and should support a 2L SR well. They powered a "135" HP 2L Roadster, so they should power a ~140HP SR. Yes, modern engine measurements have changed, but I feel I can modify the SUs to give the SR all the flow it needs. With the constant-velocity design of the SUs, I won't pay a big penalty for the bigger cars as I would with choked Webers.

There's also my familiarity with SUs that steered me in their direction. I know 'em, can tune 'em and modify 'em in my sleep.

Lastly, the SUs help with the SSS theme. All SSS cars originally came with a set of SUs bolted to the engine. This won't be different.

Also, I am not pursuing ultimate power. It is quite possible (probable, even) that I won't make as much power with this SU SR than the stock S13 SR makes with EFI. I'm okay with that. I had a reasonably fast KA510 and spent most of my driving time farting around in commute traffic. No matter what I'd swap in to the car, there'd be faster 510s by the dozen, and faster cars at every stop light.

I wanted something that could keep me up with average traffic on the suburban roads, would go up the Grapevine at 70mph, and would be reliable. The car (with the drum brakes and 150in/lb springs) is set up for more of a grand touring nature, not the go-cart I built my KA510 into.

And, when trying something new (few carb'ed SRs out there), I feel it's best to go with something I know (in the SUs) than try to learn Webers or Mikunis.

[okayfine]

The SU manifold on the other hand, I agree it could use a redesign, but until you see how the SU's perform theres no sense wasting the time trying to make the manifold pretty.

Oh, the manifold will get some loving attention from metal files and sanding discs before I call it good. What you see is the assemble-and-test-fit stage. LOTS of work still to go on that, both outside and inside. I also plan on finding a suitable blasting material to give the manifold as much of the as-cast look as I can.

A redesign would incorporate bend tubing instead of cutting/sectioning to make bends. We'd initially thought the "U" shapes we created were going to be mounted flat to the flange and point up. No dice, no room for the domes of the SUs as they pierced the top plane of the hood. So, cut, reweld, test.

I'll probably never make another SU manifold, though. This one will either work satisfactorily, or I'll switch to EFI. Or I'll sell the SR setup complete and swap in some sort of Franken L-series.

[okayfine]

The car looks great, I love white cars and I'm digging the 4-door bluebird. Still kinda questioning the SU's on the SR though. Looks like the air filter is going to have to be pretty short so it doesn't hit the strut tower.

I don't want to hijack, but how did you do the valve cover on your KA? That's pretty cool looking. And I still think you should have TIG'd your stainless header on the blue car...

Yes, the manifold got dropped off last night at my friend's house. He has plans to trim the bottom of the "U" by .2" and then reweld the SU flanges, then mill those by .25" or so. I won't be able to use the stock SSS air cleaner (though I originally hoped I could). It's ~4" thick and needs another few inches of clearance to remove. With the above trimming, I hope to be able to easily fit the typical 6" K&N individual filters. I'll also put the APT CNC stub stacks inside, as I had on my old wagon.

As to the valve cover, I'd originally hoped to have it welded in. After I took both valve covers to my TIG-welding friend, he concluded he would probably bugger everything up because the aluminum used in the L-series valve cover appeared to be much different (had more zinc? I forget) than the aluminum used in the KA cover. So, ultimately, I cut and fit the piece in the KA cover and used JB Weld. The rattle-can wrinkle coat paint worked well to cover up the non-smooth surface. It was cool, but would have been infinitely more cool to have it welded and sanded smooth. Not being a TIG welder (nor a metalurgist), I couldn't really argue the point.

As to the header, I agree. I agreed with you then, too But I can only impose on my TIG-welding friend so much. I've also since learned a better method to do decent tube welds on the MIG, which I'll describe below.

[okayfine]

Cool idea with the SU's, not sure how it's gonna perform but I would think it's going to have way more power than before...not something I would do but may end up being a great idea. Sometimes you never know what works best until you try it.

Yeah, who knows. I think they'll be more than fine, but as I said above, since no one's done it before I can't ask. It won't be the end of the world if it doesn't work out, just some altered plans. Also, compared to the ~50WHP of the L13, foot-power would be an improvement.

-When you get it all worked out are you pulling it back apart to refinish everything?? just curious.

No. I don't care enough to go through all the time and effort to get everything looking like it just rolled off the factory floor. I LOVE those people that do (like you and your Coupe), but I know that I, myself, don't have the patience to do all the serious detail work involved in getting everything just right. I'd end up never working on the project and leaving it to rot. That's why I buy my cars with body and paint done (the blue car was a rolling shell when I bought it). I just don't have those talents, it's a downfall. The manifold work I know is ahead of me (see above) will take about all the patience I have for that type of effort. Which is strange given all the love I put into refinishing the SSS instrument cluster.

Also, I intend for this car to be a daily driver, so it's going to get used and get dirty. Okay, it might not seen rain duty (I have an AWD Subaru Impreza for that, anyway), but it will see commutes, groceries, beaches, and mountains.

[hang_510]

Also, I intend for this car to be a daily driver, so it's going to get used and get dirty. Okay, it might not seen rain duty (I have an AWD Subaru Impreza for that, anyway), but it will see commutes, groceries, beaches, and mountains.

RAIN whats that? ~5 days a year 'round here?
maybe if you do the wiper motor upgrade it can get wet



i commute to work from the beach through the mountains (& get groceries) in the sedan

[Derek]

I like the car a lot Julian. This sort of project makes me wonder if I took my car too far. Especially since I am about to get a second car with a roll cage that is actually more suited to competitive racing, I sometime think it would be nice to scale my 510 back to more of a comfortable weekend cruiser. I don't think I could do 4 wheel drum brakes though!

[okayfine]

Contrary to my "I hate detail work" above, I love building exhausts. I built two different headers for my KA510 just because I love playing with tubes. If I had a TIG welder and knew how to use it, I'd be dangerous. That said, I have a lowly MIG and, even with stainless wire and blowing Argon, it's not the same. Still, I've learned a much better method for welding tubes, and specifically stainless tubes, with a MIG. Tack/spot welds. Tack, tack, tack, tack, instead of trying to run a bead, which just ends up looking like the stainless header on the KA510. Instead of that, it just looks like poor TIG welding, but I'll take it. If you go to look at the full-res photo of the tail section of the exhaust at http://www.datsun510.com, you can see the end result.

Still, you use what you have where you are, or something. Having the mother-of-all-loud-exhausts (think a crack-smoking two-stroke) on the KA510 (and, strangely, never getting popped for it), I knew I didn't want to repeat those efforts. While it fit the KA510, it wasn't going to be appropriate for Whitebird. I wanted to keep it quiet(er) but I didn't want to choke flow and reduce performance. So I developed an exhaust system that, I hope, will give me the best of both worlds. 2.25" pipe with a medium-length resonator and 2.25" Magnaflow muffler with 2.0" core. Neither of the KA510 exhausts had resonators and each had a full-pipe-size straight-through muffler.

I'd intitally considered doing header number 3, incorporating all I learned up to that point. However, with stainless prices hitting the roof (my last header used 11 u-bends), I looked at other options. It was suggested I try to find one of the Autech RWD SR headers, as the header has a much easier path in a RHD car like Whitebird. I found a never-used header and figure the $400 cost saved me a few bills in time and materials.

All stainless, TIG-welded, 4-1 mid-length header. Teh Shiny:



Well, it's shiny when it's not in a crap picture. The collector ends in a 2.25" tube. It comes with a huge 3-bolt flange which I had to cut off to fit around the idler arm, and which I would have cut anyway. After exhaust number 2 on the KA510, I really liked the v-band flanges. They're expensive and need to be welded on, but they make exhaust disassembly a snap (key if you fiddle with exhausts as I have) and, unless you warp the flange upon welding, they seal really well. Exhaust leaks suck. Or do they blow...?

So, after cutting off the flange I added two small sections of 2.25" stainless bends to clear the swing of the idler arm and orient the pipe towards the rear. I added the v-band to this, then continued the pipe into the transmission tunnel. There's a stainless flex pipe just before the transmission crossmember, then 2.25" tube back to a stainless resonator.



Again, you can barely make it all out. I should have taken pictures of the pieces before I installed them. In any case, this is labeled as a "silverline" resonator, but the Thrush stainless jobbies look to be the same. ~20" long resonator body, perforated 2.25" stainless tube with ceramic filling. This should help moderate the tone of the exhaust without unduly restricting the flow. $68, shipped, via eBay.

The exhaust goes through the crossmember, which was a mistake I'd made. When I had the crossmember out for slotting, I should have enlarged the exhaust hole. It's ~2.5" ID, and I'm sticking a 2.25" OD pipe through it, so at best there's 1/8" of clearance between any one spot (which isn't true as I don't think the pipe is perfectly parallel with the hole). I ended up wedging silicone hose in that 1/8", so we'll see if that works to prevent clanging and, if so, how long it lasts. I may end up revisiting this area, but I really, really don't want to pull the crossmember out.

And out the back:



As the pipe comes through the crossmember I cut it and sleeved it to allow the 2.25" of the tail section to slide over it, securing with a band (not v-band) clamp. This was done to allow me the ability to remove any one section of the exhaust completely from the car, if necessary. The sleeving of this section should help prevent leaks from the band clamp, as I've had previously poor experience with them. Again, this would have been solved if I had enlarged the hole in the crossmeber, in which case I'd just have used another v-band. The OD of a v-band flange for 2.25" pipe is nearly 3", though.

In any case, the 2.25" pipe goes up to a Magnaflow round muffler. Again, all stainless, perforated inner core. Back to the issue of excessive noise, I ordered the Magnaflow muffler with 2.25" ends to easy my fabrication of the exhaust, but this particular part number has a 2.0" inner core. The added restriction should help lower the sound level of the exhaust and not unduly affect flow. The exhaust gasses at this point are much cooler than they were nearer the head, where they were allowed the full 2.25". Here, at the back, they've cooled somewhat and become more dense, so they need less area.

That's the theory anyway. It remains to be heard what it sounds like. I welded 1/2" round bar off the ends of the 4" can and it uses the original factory rubber hangers and stock muffler body mounts. It fit really nicely. I don't have a tip and may not end up putting one on. They're kinda spendy ($40+) and I like the dull stainless look of the exit tube of the Magnaflow.

[okayfine]

RAIN whats that? ~5 days a year 'round here?
maybe if you do the wiper motor upgrade it can get wet

i commute to work from the beach through the mountains (& get groceries) in the sedan

If that, but this past year it came in one big gulp of 5 straight days. Between the odd rain day and the lack of ability of SoCal drivers to be able to comprehend water falling from the sky, I prefer the safety improvements and traction advantages of the Subaru.

Of course, SOMEONE has to build an AWD 510, but I've got a BRE Baja replica to build before that.

[okayfine]

I like the car a lot Julian. This sort of project makes me wonder if I took my car too far. Especially since I am about to get a second car with a roll cage that is actually more suited to competitive racing, I sometime think it would be nice to scale my 510 back to more of a comfortable weekend cruiser. I don't think I could do 4 wheel drum brakes though!

Thanks, Derek, and to everyone who's complimented Whitebird. Writing all this out was much more fun than I figured, so thanks also to icehouse for prompting me.

Derek, it was a struggle to accept that I wasn't driving the blue KA510 the way I built it to be driven. It was my "Just Married" getway car (complete with LSD burnout), nevermind all the months I spent constructing it. Still, while a very cool 510 and quite quick even with the N/A KA, it was more car (more go, more brakes, more low, more stiff, more loud) than I ended up desiring. So, I sold it and set various goals that should result in a much more moderate (as opposed to extreme) 510. As stated somewhere above, as more of a grand-touring type of 510 than racer/go-cart.

And I hear you on the drum brakes. Having driven it, I know it'll do fine (especially with new pads/hoses/fluid), and as long as it's driven with the known fact that it is a four-wheel-drum car, it shouldn't present any issues. I won't be able to keep up with Ted Hedman on the SoCal TT runs, but then I couldn't have done that in the KA510 either.

[okayfine]

As you can see in the last picture of the Exhaust post, I'm running CV axles. Or, I will be, once the car's actually running. I bought a set of CNC flanges from Matt when he did his intial run of 'em. At $200 shipped, it was an offer I couldn't refuse. At that point I hadn't really thought about running CVs (but had followed the CV axle thread here and thisismatt's thread on Ratsun) because the KA510 was low enough to cause the rear view mirror to vibrate at freeway speeds.

Whitebird wasn't going to be as low, but again, $200 shipped for the flanges was worth taking a fork in the project and budget road.

I found that there were different makers of aftermarket extended-spline VW Type II axles out there. They have various uses, but in my case they presented a cost-effective option for the custom axle length necessary for 510 CV axles. Add in some GKN CV joints, and I should have zero issues with this setup, even if I had a turbo on my SR (but maybe not if I had the boost turned up from stock).



As pictured, the CV setup is about two pounds heavier than the Datsun half shaft. Per side.



Test fit of the major pieces. I still need to shorten the axle by 1", but this is a simple lathe job as there will still be enough spline (due to the extended splines) to fully engage the CV joint.