WTB Square port header (or stock L16 exhaust mani.)

[mattyhacks71]

Looking to get a header for my L16. Would prefer a shorty, but let me know what you've got. Thanks!

[datzenmike]

An engine is an air pump, it sucks it in and pushes it out. Intake air is under about 14.7 PSI pressure at sea level. Exhaust is 5 times that (at least) and needs no coaxing to get it to leave. You are going to need a lot of performance up grades to really need a header. I'm saying the stock cast header is going to flow a lot of air before it becomes restrictive at all. Save your money and invest it in a larger cam, better less restrictive intake and side drafts. Larger valves, porting.




Other than weight saved there really isn't that much improvement.

Stock...
quieter
cooler running
fits perfectly every time
never wears (rusts) out
never comes loose or needs tightening
zero maintenance.
costs you nothing

[mattyhacks71]

Thanks Mike, I've done the research and I'm aware of the draw backs. My manifold has a crack in it, so I was just looking to see if anyone has a cheap header for sale. My car needs the full exhaust done anyways.
Also I have dual 40 DCOEs and a L20B cam, so besides a the head or a whole L20B, this is what I'd like to do next.

[RMS]

I have many stock exhausts if you find your way to the mainland as even greyhound would be more than the cost of the manifold.

[Hakosuka510]

I'm saying the stock cast header is going to flow a lot of air before it becomes restrictive at all.

Except all versions of the OEM cast exhaust manifold have a horrible protrusion/restriction right at the inlet, which kills performance even on the bean level builds people like Mike put together...

never wears (rusts) out
never comes loose or needs tightening
zero maintenance.

That's funny. I've never had any of those problems with any set of tubular headers (mild steel OR stainless) that I've ever had on any car. I guess there's a lot to be said for doing things the right way...

costs you nothing

Aha, the holy doctrine of Mike... Took an entire post to distill it down to the base reasoning.

Anyway, Matt, I have a very cool set of Trust/Greddy L16 headers with beautiful, flowing, curved runners BUT...they were originally intended for twin SUs, and some idiot here in the US hammered in three of the four primaries to clear a side draft Solex/Weber manifold. I think the worst is number two primary which is collapsed pretty far inward. They could possibly be saved by cutting out the crushed areas and welding in replacement patches but...it'd be a lot of work. They're very long runner length as well. I cried when I got them and saw what had been done to them...
I'll take a quick picture or two if it's anything you might be interested in.

[McShagger510]

Call Tracy at Specialty Engineering in Delta, they used to carry the Tri-mill header. Headers are loud, better get some Dynamat.

James

[GREG510]

Looking to get a header for my L16. Would prefer a shorty, but let me know what you've got. Thanks!

Call Tracy at Specialty Engineering in Delta, they used to carry the Tri-mill header. Headers are loud, better get some Dynamat.

James

http://www.specialtyengineering.ca/specialty_home.html

[okayfine]

Except all versions of the OEM cast exhaust manifold have a horrible protrusion/restriction right at the inlet, which kills performance even on the bean level builds people like Mike put together...

Cast manifolds with air injection have the intrusions at the ports of the manifold. ALL versions of the factory cast manifold are not created equal. For someone with Lou-levels of correctiveness, you'd think you'd know that.

That's funny. I've never had any of those problems with any set of tubular headers (mild steel OR stainless) that I've ever had on any car. I guess there's a lot to be said for doing things the right way...

Anecdote is not data. There's plenty of documented history going back decades that show the cast manifolds are more than fine for lo-po street builds and that they're still around in plentiful quantities speak to their longevity. Many 510 headers were and are made cheaply. Not all 510 headers are created equal. You may have had success with a header that has stood the test of time, that's great. Post your details so we know what you're talking about, but don't try to trump your singular experience as the word of 510dom.

[datzenmike]

You are going to need a lot of performance up grades to really need a header. I'm saying the stock cast header is going to flow a lot of air before it becomes restrictive at all.

Still stand by this assessment. Headers are a waste of time and dare I say... money... unless you run a well modified engine that needs and can use one.

Here's two more: The more you are invested in a performance part (money and time, but mostly money) the more power it makes. ( known medically as 'the placebo effect') Exhaust noise is not power.

My cast header is at least 43 years old and cost $10. How old is your header again??? 4 years? and about 20 to 35 times more. On a stock engine that's about $100 per HP gained at high RPMs and $300 per HP around town driving. Add: not cost effective to the list.

Except all versions of the OEM cast exhaust manifold have a horrible ALL versions of the factory cast manifold are not created equal.

There are L16 and L18 cast headers. L18 usually will have a EGR bung hole and L16s do not.


Here's two examples of an L16 exhaust. Note the bottom one pairs the number one with the number four and three with two so that two adjacent firing cylinders don't share the same tube. The top one isn't so well designed.



Here's a better picture of the top one. Pipes are not so separate.

[Byron510]

Since we are throwing all kinds of ideas into the sink here, I felt I'd share some of mine.
Leaking headers and stock exhaust manifolds;
Yes, as a whole - headers leak more often. However this is usually because inexperience leads to errors. The error is that our single plane head design has the intake and exhaust ports on the same side. Four of the studs/nuts on the L Series motor retain both the intake and exhaust manifolds simultaneously with a heavy flat washer leading that duty. That washer NEEDS to span both manifolds in a level fashion to work properly. And I have seen and fixed more times than naught this issue. Often most headers are not thick enough on the flange. Due to this, the top bolts and lowers studs get torqued down, but the washes that are supposed to span both manifolds reach their maximum point of angularity before properly torquing down the exhaust manifold. It usually doesn't take many heat cycles before the exhaust manifold gasket fails, and there you have a leak.

Just something to keep in mind.

On the flip side. I have also seen many stock manifolds that look like bananas on the basket surface - no where near flat. Corrosion also seems to get the better of this surface over the years, so no matter what manifold you use - give them all a fair chance. Start with a flat manifold surface on the head. Now check your manifolds themselves have a flat surface in good condition. Now check that the manifolds are exactly the same height at their shared studs to give the fasteners a proper chance to torque down both manifolds correctly without applying some insane amount or torque on the nuts.

The last item I have to add. RTV or any similar substance is NOT required to seal these components in any way. Personally I have been using Never-Seize on the intake manifold against the gasket for 20 years to facilitate removal of the intake without the need to exchange the gasket. I have never once had a failure, not one. The exhaust however has crush rings and can only be torqued down once if using anything but a full fiber gasket.

So in my mind there are variables that need to be considered in the argument - both sides have merits. I am in agreement that a good street motor up to 160 Hp and under 7000 RPM can be had with the stock L16 non injector type manifold. I have build a few of them - great fun, never had an issue. I have also run Tri Mill and Nissan Comp headers with very good success. I'll admit the Tri Mill header needed height added to the key stock pieces welded to the flange to get it to match my comp intake manifold thickness, but it worked fine when the height issue was corrected. However I still prefer a stock manifold on a street build myself as you can not deny that it will outlast the header 15:1 in longevity.


With care and attention, you'll go far.

Byron

[Hakosuka510]

Cast manifolds with air injection have the intrusions at the ports of the manifold. ALL versions of the factory cast manifold are not created equal. For someone with Lou-levels of correctiveness, you'd think you'd know that.

Cast manifolds without the air injection have restrictive intrusions as well. I've had many. I'd offer to show you a freaking picture but I typically throw them away along with 30+ pound stock flywheels, belt driven stock fans, and stock mechanical stock fuel pumps.

Anecdote is not data. There's plenty of documented history going back decades that show the cast manifolds are more than fine for lo-po street builds and that they're still around in plentiful quantities speak to their longevity. Many 510 headers were and are made cheaply. Not all 510 headers are created equal. You may have had success with a header that has stood the test of time, that's great. Post your details so we know what you're talking about, but don't try to trump your singular experience as the word of 510dom.

I never suggested to use a crap header. I wasn't referencing in singular. Yes, I know, there's "plenty of documented blah blah blah..." going back decades from the western 510 community all bout how great the crap factory exhaust manifold with a 1-inch exhaust system ending in a FlowBastard muffler is, on a car where the DGV Weber just blows the owner's mind with its performance... It's usually on the part of people who are closed-minded, follow-the-guru types. They view a stock 1.6 MX-5 as the unobtainable pinnacle of engine power and view L4 tuning in Japan as something that confuses them to the point of giving up and simply downing another beer to feel warm & happy in their place of "well if my 96hp is good enough for me, it's good enough for everyone."

Seriously, I swear to god I can't understand why some of you people don't leave your 510s completely dead stock, since your reasoning and beliefs and "documented" internet myths logically dictate that it's impossible, useless and futile to modify the cars in any way when you add it all up.

It seems to stem from this thing of, "I can't, therefore it's not possible, and so-and-so guru says it isn't either, which reinforces my belief."

Is there any hope for the western L4 community? Will Matt be able to find a header? Find out on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z!

[Hakosuka510]

BTW, Matt:
I found that Greddy header finally...and it's in as bad of condition as I thought. I'm really sure you don't want this (since you were looking for a short length header anyway), but I'll try and post some pics tomorrow.

[510rob]

so many words.

[mattyhacks71]

Woah didn't want to turn this into a big discussion (its posted in classifieds lol). I just wanted something because I can't get the factory manifold to seal at the lower flange. Thanks for your opinions, but honestly...I don't care
I'm young and don't mind if the car is ignorantly loud. Also, if I wanted a car with performance in mind I sure as hell wouldn't have bought a little 4 door jap econo box!

[Hakosuka510]

Hey now, you'd be surprised how many V8 American musclecars I've taken on and defeated on the street over the years with L18s.
Actually the most recent win was against a Chrysler Crossfire...
Anyway, here's the only header I currently have to part with, if you're at all interested in trying to save it. Like I said, it's in bad shape, with primaries 1, 2 and 4 having been hammered on for manifold clearance. #2 being the worst.
And since it's a long length header, shipping to Canada is going to be...bad.