Tire size and performance

Suspension, including wheel, tire and brake.
Button
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 14:13
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA..

Tire size and performance

Post by Button » 11 Jul 2014 19:42

As some of you may have seen in my fancy new build thread I have recently acquired a 510. One of the first things I plan on doing is getting new wheels and tires and redoing the suspension and steering and brakes.

I would ideally like to run 15x7 Konig rewinds, and based on reading this thread http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.ph ... %2F50%2F15 it seems like 205/50/15 are a great tire to run based on availability, price and performance. My dilemma is that based off my research I won't be able to get those size tires to fit without rubbing at the height I would like to be, even with rolling the fenders in my non-flared two door. Again from my research it seems like you can make 195/45/15 or 195/50/15 tires fit so my questions is what I am giving up in terms up performance with this size tire? Are there still good performance based tires at the 195/45/15 or 195/50/15 size? My primary objective with this car is to make it a car that can do autocross, track days, and spirited canyon driving well, and if I can have the car look good while meeting those objectives than all the better.

I guess I could flare the car, and I really like bolt on flares, but I don't know if I can bring myself to cut up perfectly good fenders, so ideally I keep it not flared. However as I said performance and handling are my main goals so I would do that if it allowed me to get tires on that significantly improved performance

If anyone knows how to make 205/50/15's fit at my desired ride height please let me know. I realize that part of that fitment depends on struts (stock or 280zx) and wheel offset and spacer setups, which is why I am trying to figure out my wheels before doing the suspension. Below are some reference pictures of 510s with 195/50/15s on 15x7s Rewinds at a ride height that I think looks good . Let me know if you need any more information to help give proper feedback.

Now having written this, I can't imagine that the difference between 205/50/15 and 195/50/15 would make that much of a difference, or at least to me. I'm sure for a long while the limiting factor for the performance of my car will be my skill as a driver and not the tires.

Anyways I would love to hear feedback either way from the experience of the members of this board.

Thank you.

Chris
Attachments
Rewind_510_03.jpg
Rewind_510_03.jpg (102.33 KiB) Viewed 2537 times
Rewind_510_02.jpg
Rewind_510_02.jpg (405.38 KiB) Viewed 2537 times

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10438
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by bertvorgon » 12 Jul 2014 05:31

I would not see that there would be that much of a difference. Better to have a tire that clears EVERYTHING, than one that hits a fender lip. Nothing more annoying and distractive as the sound of a tire burning away on the lip.

Overall diameter would be small, 15's being 23" for the most part. I could not find a listing for 195/40's...? I looked at Yoko's for example, and did not see anything. If that tire is shorter, you just gain a slight gearing advantage.

The biggest key is that the RIM width is ok for the tire. Nothing worse than too wide a tire on a narrow rim. The sidewall flex should never be discounted, at least from a performance driving perspective.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

Button
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 14:13
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA..

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Button » 12 Jul 2014 06:36

Thank you for the input Kieth, that's good to know about the side wall flex. I have much to learn about tire performance and dynamics. I think I will go with the 195/50/15s since there is seemingly more tire selections at that size compared with the 45s.

I am planning on immediately putting a wildwood setup on the fronts from DP racing. Off hand does anyone know will 15 x 7s fit with 510 struts or will I need to switch to 280zx struts for extra clearance. I ideally would like to use zero offset, or at least the same offset all the way around for tire rotation purposes. If I can't keep them the same offset than I am assuming I can make either the 510 or 280 struts work and fit the wheels with correct offset and spacers.

I will continue to research this, but if anyone knows off hand I would appreciate the input.

Chris

User avatar
okayfine
Supporter
Posts: 14136
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:02
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by okayfine » 12 Jul 2014 07:26

You can get 205/50/15s on a 510 without rubbing, but not with the Rewinds at 0-offset. They require camber at the rear to tuck, and given your intended goals, probably more camber than you'd want to run for A/X or track.

That said, all 205/50s are not created equal. Certain brands/models have wider tread (versus overall width along the side of the carcass) than others. The fancy Falken Azenis is a popular example of a wider tire for a given size.

The flip side is that there are LOTS of wheel options in style similar to the Rewind. Dave here, aka FutoFab.com, has the VTO in 15x7 at +12, for instance. Then there's the real-deal Panasports, Watanabes, etc.

Lastly, given the track goals and the upgrading of brakes, I think you'd be money ahead going with the stock ZX strut/brake combo. In addition to enough brakes for everything, you also gain the larger spindles and, key, larger wheel bearings of the ZX. Sticky tires and high g forces will bring short life to stock 510 parts. You can also change out the ZX hubs for Z31 four (or five, if it comes to that) lug hubs, which will bring your track back out to near stock 510 track. The ZX struts/hubs narrow track by 1.5" total, which can be problematic for fitting certain wheels.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

User avatar
S15DET
Supporter
Posts: 2561
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 17:02
Location: Waxhaw, NC

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by S15DET » 12 Jul 2014 07:32

x2 what okayfine said. I have 205-50/15's and no rubbing, same height or maybe a little lower than the photos above and no flares. I rolled the fenders with the Eastwood tool and that's it.
My Dunlop street tires have plenty of clearance, but the Azenis, RE-11's and Hoosiers are very close, but still no rubbing.

Go with the VTO's from Futofab and you'll be in good shape, stick with the 205's.

Sleepys-14
Posts: 434
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 11:26
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Sleepys-14 » 12 Jul 2014 08:50

If you get one of the big name tires like (Z2, Rival, rs3, ect...), then i would get whatever fits your car better. Running a 195/50r15 will have quite a bit of grip. I have 205/50r15 on the front and 225/45r15 on the rears BFG rivals and I can consistantly take FTD (fastest time of day) at all of our auto-x's, and thats against 450whp evos on hoosiers, and vettes on slicks. Plenty of grip to be very competitive.
Beer... The cause of, and solution to, all of lives problems- Homer Simpson

Button
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 14:13
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA..

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Button » 12 Jul 2014 21:39

Again thank you for the input guys.

Yeah I definitely do not want stanced crazy rear camber.

So to get +12 with Konigs could I put on the 280 zx struts, with longer wheel studs and 8mm spacers with+20 Rewinds?

S15det what wheels, offset, tires, and struts do you have? Do you have a photo of your car?

Sleeps - 14 what front wheels, offset, and struts are you running? Do you have a lot of rear camber? Do you have a photo of your car?

Sleepys-14
Posts: 434
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 11:26
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Sleepys-14 » 13 Jul 2014 12:54

280zx struts, 300zx hubs, 1.5" longer control arms, 15x7 +25. And on the rear I have 15x8 0 offset. I run -3.5* camber in the front and -1.5 in the rear. I have pictures in my build thread.
Beer... The cause of, and solution to, all of lives problems- Homer Simpson

Button
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 14:13
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA..

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Button » 13 Jul 2014 15:42

Dang Gordy I love you car!!! I flipped through your build thread and I can't wait until tonight where I can thoroughly read through it. So I guess to run tires as big as you I will have to run flares, but seeing your car makes me want to flare my car even more.

Sleepys-14
Posts: 434
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 11:26
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Sleepys-14 » 13 Jul 2014 19:02

If I were you, I would stick with the factory fenders and just roll/ pull them bit. The reason I did flares, is my fenders were hurtin pretty bad. I like the way your car looks!
Beer... The cause of, and solution to, all of lives problems- Homer Simpson

Button
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 14:13
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA..

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Button » 13 Jul 2014 19:33

That's good advice. I can always add flares later but it's a lot harder to go the other way. Your car does look tough with them though.

User avatar
Dave Patten
Supporter
Posts: 832
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:30
Location: Dunbarton, NH
Contact:

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Dave Patten » 14 Jul 2014 09:35

The VTO wheels FutoFab sells include a +18 offset 15x7 wheel (Retro 4 & Lemans styles). These w/205 tires fit well on a stock strut 510 with rolled fenders. I tend to err toward using a slightly larger positive offset and then adding a minimal amount of spacer if needed to get the tire clearance you need.

As to strength, I use these wheels on my own racecars. Recently at the Mount Washington Hillclimb I damaged a wheel. I had a slight off course and clipped a rock, dinging a rim and cutting down a tire. The damage to the wheel was just that a "ding". These are low pressure cast aluminum alloy wheels. Traditionally anytime "cast" is heard people think any impact results in a shattered rim, that is just not the case with VTO wheels. Today's manufacturing processes and alloys make these wheels both light, durable and safer than using old school alloys.

How light these wheels are is kind of amazing too. A 15x7 +18 offset Lemans wheel weighs only 14.7 lbs.
Dave Patten
http://www.FutoFab.com
Dunbarton, NH

Three B's Racing
Supporter
Posts: 1164
Joined: 03 Mar 2009 11:58
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Three B's Racing » 14 Jul 2014 11:03

Dave Patten wrote:The VTO wheels FutoFab sells include a +18 offset 15x7 wheel (Retro 4 & Lemans styles). These w/205 tires fit well on a stock strut 510 with rolled fenders. I tend to err toward using a slightly larger positive offset and then adding a minimal amount of spacer if needed to get the tire clearance you need.

As to strength, I use these wheels on my own racecars. Recently at the Mount Washington Hillclimb I damaged a wheel. I had a slight off course and clipped a rock, dinging a rim and cutting down a tire. The damage to the wheel was just that a "ding". These are low pressure cast aluminum alloy wheels. Traditionally anytime "cast" is heard people think any impact results in a shattered rim, that is just not the case with VTO wheels. Today's manufacturing processes and alloys make these wheels both light, durable and safer than using old school alloys.

How light these wheels are is kind of amazing too. A 15x7 +18 offset Lemans wheel weighs only 14.7 lbs.
Dang Dave that's what my 14x7 wheels weigh.
"Lastnight the wife said oh boy when your dead you can't take nothing with you but your soul oh "Think"
- John Lennon

User avatar
S15DET
Supporter
Posts: 2561
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 17:02
Location: Waxhaw, NC

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by S15DET » 14 Jul 2014 11:28

Here's my car on 15x7's and 205's. These crappy wheels are 18.8 lbs. , the VTO's are awesome!
Image

User avatar
Great_Escape
Supporter
Posts: 63
Joined: 14 Jun 2013 21:18
Location: Soquel, Ca

Re: Tire size and performance

Post by Great_Escape » 14 Jul 2014 18:54

I run either Dunlop ZII 185/60 14 or Falken 615k 195/60 14. With my rims those are the Two performance tires that fit my car. I cant tell any grip difference with the width difference in those two tires. But I run them primarily for street use. its hard to have an accurate judgment of grip on the street. I 100% agree with Dave. Keep your 510 struts(you already own them) and By 4 wheels with the same/correct offset. If you need to make a slight spacing adjustment front vs rear use a quality machined spacer. This will enable you to rotate your tires front to rear as performance tires usually directional. Also Dave is Right as error toward the the side of more room.

Post Reply