"rough rider,bre paint" big time motors major rust repair

[Byron510]

Eh Tyson, it was the metal work at the front of those rockers and the handmade dog legs that impressed me yesterday - great work! I've made both of these bits, but not executed like you guys have done - awesome to see this level of execution in the time allotted. This is craftsmanship.

What wasn't pointed out here - or at least stressed enough - this car was flared if you recall - check out the rebuilding of the quarters! Great work - keep the photos coming. You guys have the right to be proud of the work you do. No justification is required. I'm also happy to see that guys are willing to spend the money to get these cars saved - that too is a real commitment.

Byron

[RonM]

I apologize. It Seems as though I've inadvertently kicked a hornets nest with my comment. Please understand, it came from ignorance, and was not intended to ruffle anyones feathers. I assumed Mr. T was a hobbyist, and I was concerned that Merlin's tone seemed a bit negative. I wanted to show some support for the amazing work Tyson is doing there, and I still feel he should be recognized for it. As many people here know, it's not easy to do what he's doing. His hourly rate is what it is, but it's not his responsibility to decide what is financially justifiable for his clients. A 510 project build isn't a fiscally prudent undertaking... At least not for a few more years anyway.

With total respect,

Ron M.

[dp61]

Thanks Tyson, that was what I was wondering. There is no question the service you are offering to 510 guys is invaluable, especially for those of us who are not so inherently talented. An aquaintance of mine has done similar work on old Alfas and XK120's and in fact the XK120 build cost almost $200k in the end. Your prices are good for what you get, I'd love to come see your work in person one day!

[merlin]

Dr ron, help me out here... Bottom line here is what I'm trying to pass on here is that the owner needs to have a plan with a fairly firm budget, or risk feeling shitty about the thing in the long run, regardless of how well it turns out. And they need to be able to give up on a project when it no longer makes sense.

Tyson did what i paid him to do at the rate he quoted me in advance. The only real variables in the bad granny equation were 1. What level of detail in the restoration I wanted and 2. How much hidden damage was Tyson going to come across during the resto....

With Granny, both were pretty high in the end and my budgeted amount for bodywork ended up at slightly over double what i had pencilled in when i started the project.

Because my standards were pretty high for level of resto detail, the fixes tyson and crew had to do to fix the hidden damage on my car were very costly because they were very time consuming. 2x2 is only 4.. But 2x4=8 and 4x4=16... When one or both variables change, the cost can go up exponentially.


At the 5k mark, i should've taken Granny back and pushed her in the river, then driven to Cali with a trailer and brought back a cleaner shell and got him to start from scratch... It would've been the smart move financially to not throw any more good money at her and start from scratch with a new car. My emotional attachment to saving granny is what cost me the money, not tyson.

...hating a car might seem irrational, but i hate that f***ng car because i let the project get away from me financiallyto the point that even if i finish it, this car will always be the worst financial decision ive ever made. I run a company with 20+ employees, am a city councillor, have zero corporate or personal debt and i paid off my 25 year mortgage in 11 years... I went from 3k in assets in 2001 to having over a million in 2011. I don't make financial mistakes, soGranny is the big sore thumb.

[joker72z]

Merlin, I feel your pain. It's a decision that can only be looked at in hindsight and say I shouldn't have, but I did. I'm just wondering that at the end of the road, when Granny is on the blacktop and you are driving her...will you not likely have a big smile knowing it's one of the cleanest 510's out there? I truly hope so.

The financial part hurts but the hours, days, months and years of driving enjoyment will hopefully dull that pain to the point you don't think of it any longer.

"the bright side"...

Tyson... great work.

[jason]

I think that the point that Merlin makes is valid, if you are going to be having work done on a car, have a realistic budget. The actual end value of the car rarely equates with the value of the work put into it, unless you do the work yourself and don't count the hours. However, the amount of money spent cannot just be equated with the end financial value. We wouldn't be playing with these old cars if it was only for the financial reward in the end ...

I have worked with Tyson in the past and I've found his work and rates to be more than fair. I had a budget for the work I needed to get done and Tyson worked within the budget and did a fantastic job! He rebuilt the left front corner of my blue 4 door, repaired the upper frame rails and the passenger side front door pillar, door, fenders, driver's footwell and hood and undercoated and repainted the whole shooting match. This was to make the car safe to resurrect as it was too far gone structurally otherwise to be worth the effort. I should point out here that Tyson put in extra hours beyond my budget to finish the work he agreed too because he wouldn't let sub standard quality work on a 510 out of his shop too! I still haven't resurrected the car yet, but, I will, but, I wouldn't have been able to even think about it without Tyson's help and generosity to a fellow club member! I highly recommend his work to anyone local, but, be realistic with a budget and the work needed and remember that there will always be hidden damage that you haven't anticpated, these things are way too old unless you have a "Greg Terry" car tucked away!

[merlin]

The other irony here is that Tysons work was so good that i just can't slap on any old refurbished parts... Its gotta be NOS, quality reman/resto or a good OEM replacements to do the body resto justice. joker sold me 2 very clean bumpers , but i'm still going to have them rechromed as the mostly minor scatches really show up next to tysons near perfect paint.

Mo money, mo money!

[Byron510]

The other irony here is that Tysons work was so good that i just can't slap on any old refurbished parts... Its gotta be NOS, quality reman/resto or a good OEM replacements to do the body resto justice. joker sold me 2 very clean bumpers , but i'm still going to have them rechromed as the mostly minor scatches really show up next to tysons near perfect paint.

Mo money, mo money!

Merlin, I have the exact same felling about the Memorial Car, it's the cleanest 510 I have ever touched, and parts I once thought of as pretty good, now don’t met the standard. And on top of this, I am building that car to the standard which I remember Greg having - which is why it sat in his garage for over 20 years! At some point you just need to move forward and make the decision that you are doing the right thing for you. Granny is a beautiful top model; I wish you lived closer; we could trade crazy stories about our builds.
Take care my friend, stay inspired And I'll quit hijacking Tyson’s build thread Sorry man, no disrespect meant.

Byron

[tycot1]

thanks for the kind words and support guys. merlin i totally hear your point, i sure hope you finish that car though. you guys want to talk about $ spent on a car that will never come back? i have owned my car since 1996 and have spent over $65,000 not including the labour i have put in myself. those are just large receipts for work and parts i have had done. if i guessed on the body and paint i just did last year you could add another $10,000. we all hurt when $ is spent.

[speeder]

Tyson, excellent work. It seems like for what you do, you are probably undercutting the market by a significant margin. I am glad you are in the Datsun restoration pipeline, keeping Datsuns alive in addition to German, Italian, British, or American metal.

Merlin, I am sorry to hear you hate Bad Granny because of the money spent on it. It is a beautiful car and good on you for resurrecting it, but you know that already. I agree with your sentiment regarding Cali cars. I'm consistently amazed by the 20, 30, and 40 year old cars around Santa Cruz in original condition, often with original paint. And I'm on the coast! It's even easier on cars 20 miles inland! In short, I think you are right that there is potentially large savings in starting a big resto with a dry body, even when you add in the cost of flying to see the car and drive or ship it home. I am blown away by what can be fixed in terms of rust, but it is a huge and expensive undertaking.

Now back to this killer 4 door body rebuild! Keep the pics coming. Its nice to see a 4 door getting this much attention!

[bertvorgon]

Wow....I can hear what you are saying...as one who has spent more than any of you can imagine on my 510(s), over 43 years....I could have bought a house for cash!
What I have sat back and looked at, is the fact that it has given me great pleasure over the years, more than just a passing hobby, a money pit as others may think, those that don't understand our passion for cars.
This "car" has also given something else, which you cannot put a dollar value on...it has been a "vehicle" (pun intended) to let me build a community of life long friends, those that share the same passion. Like what Joker said, when it's done, and your sitting at the All Nissan Meet, or Canby, or just going for a drive, then it WILL be all worthwhile.
I've had time...like when I crashed at Westwood...and sat looking at the broken wreck...and thought.." What the hell am I doing?"
I got through that, and in restrospect, I'm truly glad I kept going.
As I head into work today, to work on the 510, I still have a spark to keep going, thinking of the Great Rolling Dyno out there, and my group of friends to share the adventure with.

[dodgydan]

THIS is a great read. thanks for all the detailed input and the costs involved. it helps us stay focused on our own builds and not get discouraged, or in to deep. but even if you plan ahead. there are always surprises. if you have the means and you want "YOUR" car. then replacing the shell with a better one wont cut it. if your in it to make money, or build any 510. then start with the best you can afford or find. and for guys that do there own bodywork and /or mech. do the best you can. if your on a budget. watch out for hidden surprises, and compromises. and dont expect to cut corners, or cost and get a perfect, lasting finished product. but one that makes you happy. i have built cars that most would of scrapped, but only because i enjoy it and in doing my own labour, can end up with something i cant afford to buy. and reading tysons post reminds me of this. i to have bin to his shop and seen his work. very impressive. people dont always tell you how much it cost to build their car, because it doesnt sound like a sound financial decision. but it is most always way more than what he can sell it for.

[iceD]

Can you say "rust be gone". Nice work.

ice D

[Dave Patten]

Merlin,
It sounds like you need to apply a different mindset towards Bad Granny and/or make some tough decisions on where the project goes next.

The only car project I ever tracked cost on was my tube frame 510 racecar. Not so much to limit expenditure but to appease my wife and for her to show me how much money I really did spend on racing. Once the build got past $10K we both pretty much didn't want to know what the ultimate cost would be and stopped tracking it. It took 3 years to complete the project as both cash and interest ebbed and flowed during the period. There were times when I virtually gave up and it would sit idle for months. That project over it life cost me 10's of thousands of dollars and was sold for $8500 after 10 years of racing. Did I regret doing it when it was all over, no way in Hell!

I guess what I am trying to pass along is hobbies/recreational activities, whatever they may be, have to be looked at far differently than a business transaction. You spend on them as your funds allow and you have to expect little to nothing in financial worth when you no longer participate in them. You do it out of the satisfaction of doing the activity and the rewards it gives you are on a personal level and nothing more.

Merlin, sounds like that is where it you are at with Bad Granny. Maybe the time has come for some personal retrospect on the project's future.

[RonM]

Piggy backing on David's advice,

Dr ron, help me out here... Bottom line here is what I'm trying to pass on here is that the owner needs to have a plan with a fairly firm budget, or risk feeling shitty about the thing in the long run, regardless of how well it turns out. And they need to be able to give up on a project when it no longer makes sense.

.hating a car might seem irrational, but i hate that f***ng car because i let the project get away from me financiallyto the point that even if i finish it, this car will always be the worst financial decision ive ever made. I run a company with 20+ employees, am a city councillor, have zero corporate or personal debt and i paid off my 25 year mortgage in 11 years... I went from 3k in assets in 2001 to having over a million in 2011. I don't make financial mistakes, soGranny is the big sore thumb.

Merlin,

What you wrote in your posts here has had me thinking. I hope I'm not overstepping, but I felt compelled to give you some feedback. Straight up, your advice to start a build with the best shell you can find is (figuratively and literally) right on the money. In your post you also point out the importance of having a well thought out plan, and keeping your eyes on the budget. All of this is very good advice for someone planning a project.

I sympathize with you, because I know how painful it can be to look back on mistakes and think " had I only just...". About 15 years ago I received a $50K insurance settlement . At the same time I had the opportunity to get in on the Yahoo IPO at $31 a share. I was going to invest it all in yahoo stock, but instead I bought new first generation digital photography equipment for my studio. This investment was totally obsolete, and all but worthless within two years. In that same two years, had I invested it in yahoo stock, I would have been rich. The only thing of value I can take from this mistake is to learn from it, but If I had lived in regret over this, the cost would have been exponentially greater.

A simple matter of perspective can make all the difference. In your situation you have a real asset in that shell, yet you fail to see that it's worth every penny you've invested in it. If you are using a spreadsheet for measuring the potential return on investment for this project, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Looking back, could you have saved money by doing it differently? Maybe. Unfortunately it seems your feelings about paying more than you anticipated has clouded your view. I believe your "hatred" of this car is a projection of these negative feelings. It's painful for me to see what this beautiful shell now represents for you.

I want to challenge you to let all that go for just a moment. wipe the slate clean and imagine that all you have right now is the desire for a great car. Now out of the blue, this shell just appeared in your shop. GIven your present financial situation, would you move forward. The truth is, in this moment, right here and now, you have the shell of your dreams. The only way you could loose money at this point would be to let it go, and wind up regretting it in the future. If however, your hobby has become nothing more than a burden, simply holding on to it would still be the smart move, because the value of that shell will only go up. And if the flame is rekindled take your time, enjoy the path, and push yourself in realizing your dream; be it reaching for perfection, getting the best deal, or both, Always remember though, If it had to make sense there would be no 510s on the road.

With compassion and respect,

Ron M.